Inspiring Women in Law: a conversation with Pilar Otero, in-house Counsel at Bancolombia  

"Litigation brings the human element to legal problems."
 

Latin Counsel has had the privilege of interviewing Pilar Otero, Manager of the Regulatory and Public Affairs Department at Bancolombia.
With an LL.M. in Banking and Financial Law from Boston University School of Law, her work is crucial to align legislative and regulatory proposals with the strategic needs of the organization and the country.
Pilar Otero’s trajectory is a testimony of evolution and resilience, driven by a deep "sense of justice" that led her to the law. She began her career in corporate and commercial law, but her experience in litigation during the UPAC crisis "humanized the issues" of law and ignited her "curiosity for the financial sector". Her specialization in finance led her to an LL.M. in the U.S. and to key roles at Citibank Colombia and BBVA New York, where she lived through the 2008 crisis and the Madoff scandal. These experiences forged her negotiation skills, risk management and global strategic vision of the sector.
The death of her father prompted her to return to Colombia, taking on the challenge of leading the Regulatory Department at Bancolombia. Currently, Pilar combines her international experience with a strong commitment to diversity, inclusion and gender equity, promoting internal initiatives aligned with the bank’s institutional mission to close gaps and enrich the financial sector.
In addition to her role at Bancolombia, Pilar demonstrates her commitment to academia as a lecturer at the Universidad Externado de Colombia, teaching the module "Legal issues of the securities market and the insurance market in the face of new technologies" in the specialization in Fintech Law.
In this interview, Pilar Otero shares her perspectives on the impact of technology, the challenges of regulatory populism and the importance of education and teamwork, offering a comprehensive look at her professional, academic and personal life, including the challenges and importance of family support and flexible work policies in the lives of today’s professionals, especially in her decision to return to take care of her mother.

Latin Counsel: What inspired you to become a lawyer and how has your career evolved from its beginnings to your current position at Bancolombia?

Pilar Otero: My main inspiration to become a lawyer has always been and always has been a sense of justice. I advocate for justice and it is the backbone that guides my work. I studied law because I wanted to have an understanding of what the rules of the game were. My professional career as a lawyer has had an important evolution since I started with an inclination towards corporate and commercial matters. Then I had the opportunity to litigate in a major law firm in favor of financial institutions after the declaration of unconstitutionality of the UPAC. This experience changed the way I see the law, since litigation makes you see everything you learned during your career no longer as a static knowledge but in movement. It also humanizes the problems that arise daily and that are solved by a third party (judge, mediator, conciliator, etc.).
There I learned the importance of conciliation and it allowed me to see the law in a different way; there I learned the importance of having a strategic vision, and that when one drafts any legal act, one must always keep in mind the worst scenarios in order to shield the parties from litigation.
My curiosity for the financial sector also began there, and after working at Citibank, I confirmed this inclination and went on a scholarship to a prestigious university in the U.S. to continue my studies in this field. While there, I was fortunate to be linked to Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria in New York, where I lived and managed the 2008 crisis and the Madoff scandal, including the various litigations that arose around these two events. In New York I also handled the corporate business in the financial sector and, again, it was fascinating to see the shift in strategy in that organization after the 2008 crisis, where immense uncertainty, market contraction and lack of liquidity arose, and how this was translated into how to continue with the business by agreeing different types of contracts that were not prevalent before this crisis occurred.
Feeling the financial crisis on the streets of New York was an unparalleled experience. But there I also had the opportunity to see how the legislature and the executive respond to correct the loopholes that led to a crisis of such magnitude, and again the human part involved behind it becomes palpable.
However, after my father’s death I decided to return to Colombia to be closer to my mother, who was widowed after being married for 50 years, with the fortune of having a job offer at Bancolombia, where I currently work. Arriving at the Regulatory Department after having spent almost a decade in the U.S. was undoubtedly a great challenge for me, but today I firmly believe that it was the perfect place to land in order to soak up again what I had missed about the Colombian financial system while I was away, and at the same time to be able to support the regulatory process with my U.S. experience.

Latin Counsel: Was there a turning point in your career that defined your path to leadership in the financial legal field?

Pilar Otero: Going to do my LL.M in Banking and Financial Law in the U.S. and then joining BBVA S.A. in New York in the wake of the 2008 crisis was definitive not only for my career but in my life in general. This experience opened my mind in an unimaginable way. First of all, there I started a personal process of self-knowledge that I might not have been able to do anywhere else.
I discovered the possibility of flying on my own, and I flew high and lived fully; I faced loneliness and found joy in my own company. I also appreciated what I had taken for granted and that, only feeling its absence, I valued: my family and the education I received, the unblemished legacy of my parents, the love and pride of my homeland, the fortune of our fauna and flora; better said, I saw the bulls from the sidelines and understood the importance of seeing the forest and not just the tree.
I also demystified many beliefs I had, such as that if I had studied law in Colombia I would never be able to practice in the U.S.; that foreign lawyers are better or more studied than one or that they are better professionals. From the labor point of view, living through the 2008 crisis was an unparalleled professional experience because it confronts you with a situation where you cannot think about the problem, but rather about solutions and executing them, all in a matter of seconds.
This experience, and particularly the litigation that arose from the bankruptcy filing of players such as Lehman Brothers, helped us to capitalize on the lessons learned from situations or behaviors that caused this crisis. Managing the relationship with the outside lawyers who handled the litigation empowered me not only in my skills as a litigator, but also in the contract negotiation process, as I could say that a clause in a certain contract is not negotiable because we have the experience of litigation that showed us that without that clause we assume a risk that we are not willing to take.
On the other hand, I was able to execute from start to finish countless transactions with parties located in different parts of the world, which strengthened my negotiation skills and strategic vision.
Likewise, I was able to realize where I can go and what I can achieve with my technical skills, but especially with my soft skills. My adaptability, problem solving, teamwork, resilience, emotion management and effective communication skills were undoubtedly what made me so successful in this professional stage of my life.

Latin Counsel: What is your perspective on diversity in the legal sector?

Pilar Otero: For me, diversity, understood in all the spectrums and angles that the definition implies, and not only in the legal sector but in all aspects of life, is the logical and natural direction to follow, because the more visions of more individuals, understood and accepted as a whole, are considered, the more enriched the result will necessarily be than if we only have the male vision, for example. If I add square plus square, the result will always be a rectangle; but if I add a square, plus a circle, plus a triangle, plus an asterisk, plus a point, the result is infinite.
This happened to me in a place where I worked, where no matter how much I wanted and tried to be a square, at the end of the day I was a circle and could never become a square.
My inexperience, or perhaps my naivety, made me think that I should try to be the same as my colleagues and I didn’t realize how much I contributed by being a circle.
When I had the opportunity to work outside Colombia I met people of all kinds of shapes, colors, flavors and I understood firsthand the concept of diversity at work and how it enriched my life inside and outside of work and how my contributions enriched the Organization I worked with. I do not look at anyone’s labels for results, but rather at what everyone can bring to the table to enrich the discussion and consequently the results; this premise governs both my personal and work life. If one only lived with women in one’s life, one would miss thousands of experiences that other human beings of different genders can bring to the table.
The same happens in the labor field and very particularly in the legal sector: the world is not made of only black and white, but it has a whole range of grays and colors that must be taken into account to obtain an optimal balance, to obtain justice, and when this happens the result is always extraordinary.
I believe that one should not speak of equality in the labor field but of equity, since equity recognizes that each person has different needs and resources and seeks to provide what each one needs to have the same opportunities for success.
I do not believe that this is a fight against the masculine, but that it should be a work of all, if not for an altruistic issue, then for a purely economic issue; it has been proven that the more diversity in companies, the more profitability they will have. Again, it is not only crucial in the legal field, but also in the financial, personal, commercial, technological, scientific, etc. spheres of life, since those of us who are behind any sector, career, profession or work are human beings and the more diverse our vision of life is, the more enriched it will be. I can attest to this.
In the financial sphere, it is even more important to talk about the importance of financial inclusion. In order to be inclusive, we must necessarily be diverse.
This implies being able to devise products focused on, for example, the base of the pyramid, or women heads of household, but for this to happen, there must be people with this sensitivity who can generate traction within the organization and the sector. The more open we are to listening to each other, the better discussions we will have and the better results we will obtain.

Latin Counsel: Have you noticed a change in the representation of women and minorities in leadership positions within the financial institutions where you have worked?

Pilar Otero: Yes, although there is still a long way to go. Lately there are two issues that I see predominantly present: (i) micromachismos, or subtle or imperceptible attitudes of gender violence, that develop in everyday life, which, not being classified as a form of direct violence, become difficult to detect and stop; and (ii) the lack of sorority, which means a poor or bad relationship of solidarity among women, especially in the struggle for their empowerment.
I believe that these two points are something we should not raise awareness on and do extra work to avoid normalizing micromachismos and promote sorority among women.
I think it is key to teach women how to deal with micromachismo and not to feel threatened by other women and instead to sensitize us to "give us more peace" among us.
Nowadays, not only is there more awareness of the need to have women and minorities in leadership positions within financial institutions, but also, for example, in Bancolombia there is a whole culture led by the President of the Bank that seeks to raise awareness within our organization about the importance of gender equity, diversity and inclusion. Likewise, there are clear initiatives to close the gender equity gap, as well as for the empowerment of women to break glass ceilings, for example.

Latin Counsel: What initiatives have you led at Bancolombia to promote diversity and inclusion within your team and in the industry in general?

Pilar Otero: I want to start, taking advantage of this interview with a chain of gratitude initiative: I want to thank all the men who have paved the way for me, who have given me an opportunity to show what I am made of. And why do I thank men in particular? Because I personally had some very strong male roles, but they inspired me and made me the woman
I am, so there is only room for gratitude. I hope I can start a chain of gratitude to all of us who have had someone who has predominantly pushed us or inspired us, because thanks to them we have come far. Now, in answer to your question, I have an initiative that I hold very close to my heart: I had the good fortune to do a job for a senior manager within the Organization on "Gender Equity", which, at the time, was the topic in vogue. There I was able to identify the evolution that has taken place in Colombia in this area and I dealt with issues such as unconscious biases or stereotypes, gender roles and access barriers.
This work served as input for different discussions that the President of Bancolombia, Juan Carlos Mora, wanted to have within the entity, an initiative that evolved into the creation of a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion department that reports directly to the President of Bancolombia. We no longer speak only of gender equity but also of diversity and inclusion, which covers a much broader spectrum and seeks to include not only women but also all minorities.

Latin Counsel: How has your experience abroad, especially in the U.S., influenced your view of diversity in the Colombian financial sector?

Pilar Otero: While I have always had a very broad view of diversity from home, as I was never taught to see life with labels or stereotypes, my experience in the U.S. certainly ratified my belief in it.
However, I have come to realize that this is an issue that must be worked on in a constant or committed way, since we all have unconscious biases, which, as the word indicates, we do not know we have them. But, in addition, many women come from sexist mothers, and although we are not aware of it, we normalize many micromachismos that do not allow us a true empowerment.
That is why my work experience in the U.S. was so valuable. Because I understood that, although I was taught some incredible basics at home, sometimes you are not aware in the working world that you are being subject to biases by other people, but you can also be the one who has those biases, which makes it difficult to close gaps.
Moreover, the U.S. labor standards themselves are geared towards closing gender gaps. However, I believe that at least in the organization where I currently work, there is an exemplary effort to adopt the world’s best practices in this area and incorporate them into the Bank’s organizational culture.

Latin Counsel: When selecting firms to collaborate with, what criteria do you consider most important?

Pilar Otero: In my opinion, the concept of "onesize fits all" does not apply when selecting firms. Although I work in the financial sector, there are issues of competition law, or litigation or labor law, for example. So one first asks oneself what is the matter I need to solve and from there one looks for specialties and from there one looks for trajectory and experience for the consultation or the matter that is needed.
You also look for references from other colleagues.

Latin Counsel: Do you rely on directories such as Chambers or Legal 500?

Pilar Otero: Directories such as Chambers or Legal 500 are usually an excellent source of consultation to choose the firm or lawyer you want to work with.
They show you the whole spectrum of options you have to choose from and this is undoubtedly a great input.

Latin Counsel: What are the biggest challenges facing the financial sector today and how do you think they can be overcome?

Pilar Otero: From the area in which I work, that is, Regulation and Public Affairs, there is undoubtedly a great challenge and that is regulatory populism, which refers to proposing initiatives that, although they may be well seen by the common people of society, or those to whom they are directed and who, in principle, benefit, do not have a real and truthful support of the impacts that such initiatives may have for the financial sector, for the country’s economy and even for the people that in theory they seek to protect or help.
Sadly, these initiatives that are populist in nature are usually the ones that most affect a country’s economy, or a niche of people, who are usually the least favored.
It is also unfortunate to see that many times, not even the legal or theoretical arguments are valid, nor the projections in figures of the possible impacts, but it is part of a "political game" and "political interests" where none of this is taken into account.
I invite you, for example, to look at the legislative and executive initiatives that will be discussed and that will have the highest visibility in the media, and if you can, take one of them and review it as ordinary citizens that we all are. Try to look behind the scenes and look for the real interests they seek. Understand the political moment in which these initiatives are being conceived.
We will find initiatives that seek to eliminate the costs incurred by entities that capture resources from the public to provide financial services, or initiatives aimed at protecting financial consumers, or financial inclusion, among other issues that are usually on the front page. However, these initiatives ignore many constitutional norms and, in addition, they ignore the fundamental role played by the financial sector in a country’s economy. Another major challenge facing the financial sector today is the constant change it faces and the adaptability of financial sector entities to these changes.
The financial sector must be changeable, considering not only technological or regulatory changes, but also understanding the changes experienced by new generations. It is key to understand the best way to communicate with them as they evolve. All of this must come from a holistic view as everything is intertwined.
As to how it can be overcome, I believe that all citizens must be more active and responsible when exercising our constitutional rights, for which I consider a basic knowledge of the Political Constitution to be key. One does not have to be a lawyer to have read the Political Constitution and try to understand the rights and duties we have as citizens, as well as the obligations and responsibilities of the other branches of government. The second thing is to always try to go to the source.
We live in a world of fake n ews, WhatApps, tweets and, in general, a lot of information that is made available to us, on many occasions, by artificial intelligence and machine learning that collect our tastes or inclinations and throw us more of the same. In that sense, I believe that trying to go to the source and form your own opinion of the matter is key.
Trying to understand your environment is also fundamental. Understanding or at least trying to understand the political game and how it influences the rules that are issued is key. And one recommendation I always make is that when it comes to voting, you have to do your homework well, especially when voting for Congress.
We must be well informed about who we are handing over the future of our country and be convinced of all those criteria that seem to us to be key to lead a country.

Latin Counsel: How do you see technology, especially artificial intelligence, transforming the financial sector and what are the legal challenges this poses?

Pilar Otero: I believe that technology has been facilitating our work, but undoubtedly all the technological advances of perhaps the last decade and in particular the last few years, specifically the effect of the COVID-19 pandemic, has led to the imminent development of a true digital banking, which forces us to be updated and steeped not only in technological advances, but how to implement them within financial institutions. It also forces us to be updated on how it is regulated in other countries that are ahead of us.
This poses a clear legal and personal challenge: one, that laws are not being issued at the same speed as technological advances and two, we must become more comprehensive lawyers and be curious to learn about other tasks that, perhaps, when we studied law, we never thought we would have to understand. In order to materialize AI, Blockchain, crypto, Cloud, etc. we must understand the minutiae of how they work.
But we are also guided by international experience, for which we must also be curious, not only of local legislation but also of international legislation.
This is in order to propose the incorporation of a regulation appropriate to our reality and our legal environment.
In Colombia, the Financial Superintendence did a good job with the adoption of the Sandbox (or Regulatory Sandbox ), which is a model that facilitates the testing of innovative technological developments in a controlled test space, which may not have an applicable regulation and where the risks of the project to be tested can be visualized. Another important challenge posed by artificial intelligence is the importance of data protection.

Latin Counsel: How does the political situation in Latin America affect the financial world and what measures do you consider necessary to mitigate these impacts?

Pilar Otero: Unfortunately there is a global trend of polarization and, as a consequence of this, depending on the president in charge, the legal positions that regulate or impact the financial sector change.
For example, today we see a global trend towards deregulation of the financial system.
But not to go too far, this happens constantly in Colombia, where certain political parties or even the government itself propose legislative changes that impact the financial sector, without even doing a rigorous impact analysis. Neither are the observations and comments made at trade union level taken into account, but what is seen in the end is a political game in a matter that constitutionally should have some limits.
And then there is no real separation of powers since the legislative and even the judiciary is highly politicized. So the financial sector will always be seen as the "bad guy" of the ride, without really understanding the importance of this sector for the development of the country. I believe that we should tend to open neutral spaces for discussion where not only the public and private sectors intervene, but also the academia and other actors involved and really listen to each other.

Latin Counsel: How do you see the future of the financial sector in the next 5 to 10 years?

Pilar Otero: I really believe that as long as all the actors in the financial sector and, in general, the whole world society does not become aware of the importance of issues such as the sustainability of the planet, global warming, the carbon footprint, ocean pollution, among others, I do not see a financial sector in 10 years. However, I believe that finally the global agenda is becoming more and more active with this commitment, so I believe that this is the near future, if not also the present, of the financial sector.
I also believe that, although we will continue to see technological advances that we could never imagine, I believe that the chips that are in the air today and the new players that are entering the financial world will be more settled. I think we will be more prepared to incorporate technological advances. And I would certainly like to think that we will see more minorities in senior management positions in the sector.
But for that we have to understand that we not only have to open up space in the financial sector, but now in a financial sector that is highly dependent on the technology sector, which is also a predominantly male sector.

Latin Counsel: How have you managed to balance your role as the primary caregiver of a family member with your career as a corporate lawyer? What strategies do you use to manage your time and responsibilities?

Pilar Otero: In my case I was never married, I never had children and I am the only woman and the youngest after four male siblings.
My dad passed away in 2014 and in 2015 I returned from New York with one goal in mind and that was to take care of my mom, who had been widowed after 50 years of being married to dad. I made the decision to move in with her even though I had already become independent since I was able to do so at the time and she and I have an excellent relationship. This decision was the first of many decisions I have made in my life that has generated controversy: how can a 40 year old woman (at that time) go to live with her mother? Simple, because it was what she wanted.
Now, my mom has always been a woman who has enjoyed excellent health and has always been very independent. However, during the last two or three years my mother’s health began to deteriorate progressively, and although I am her primary caregiver, that is, the one who makes sure she has something to eat, takes her to medical appointments, and has even hospitalized her when necessary.
However, she, like a good doctor’s wife, never told me that she was feeling sick, and whenever I talked to my medical brothers I always told them that I was exaggerating when I saw her feeling sick, until I had to hospitalize her for the first time and particularly last year when I had to hospitalize her twice.
What I am getting at with this story is that women not only have roles as wives or mothers, but that many times it falls on us to take care of our parents during their old age.
Personally, this care was expected of me because I am the only woman and as my brothers would say, there are things that only a daughter can do for her mother.
Last year, when I had to hospitalize my mother twice and be her primary caregiver at the clinic for weeks, I was fortunate to have a leader and a team that gave me unconditional support in this matter. In addition, the Bancolombia Group has flexible work schemes and I, since the pandemic, am in a telework model.
This flexibility was key, not so much when she was hospitalized, but especially afterwards, because of the care and new needs she required. Knowing that I work in an organization that promotes the well-being of everyone, including its employees. I believe that there is also an element of self-responsibility that must also prevail, since what is sought at the end of the day in these situations is to find a balance where one fulfills one’s work responsibilities, but with the flexibility and support of one’s employer, leader and team.
I must say that if there is something of which I am proud of the company where I work, it is that this Vice Presidency knows and preaches humanity and empathy for the welfare of all, and in this case, my own. They provided me with tools, informed me of the alternatives offered by the Bank given my circumstances, and at the end of the day, they gave me a message of support, which was very valuable to me and ratified my commitment to fulfill my job responsibilities. It is also key to learn to delegate and lean on others when the circumstance warrants it. Dad had a saying that I think is very true that says "The cemeteries are full of indispensable people" and this makes even more sense when you are in a situation like mine.
This has taught me, my leader and my team that there are priorities in life and there are circumstances in which one must escalate, talk, delegate and seek support and that, just as when you go on vacation, there is a person from your team who relieves you, there is also a team when you are going through a difficult moment or situation or juncture.
Also, having an agenda and using the technological tools you have, such as the calendar, pending tasks, among others, is essential to achieve balance.
Another issue of crucial importance is to remove the biases that exist in the care of the elderly and the proof is in my experience: I had to realize that I alone could not take care of my mother for the simple fact that I am a woman or because I am the only daughter, and we all, as a family, had to take action. Between my mother, my siblings and I, we understood that in order to take care of my mother, we must be and act as a team, just as we do in our jobs. We understood that we all have obligations, but caring for our parents, particularly in their old age or in their health problems, is also an obligation for all of us. And although we have not yet reached a total synchrony on how to handle this situation, we are united in achieving that longed-for balance between fulfilling each one’s work responsibilities and also with the care and well-being of Mom, with all that this implies.
This experience has left me with many lessons that I would like to share: the first and perhaps the most important is to be aware that there comes a time when our parents become like another child, and this is something that we must keep in mind both in the family and professional spheres, since this implies having to adapt to this situation. Second, it shows firsthand the unconscious biases that still exist and how problematic and ineffective gender roles are. We must address and raise awareness of these issues and experiences in work, family and academic spaces, since care work does not necessarily correspond "by nature" to women.
Finally, the importance of teamwork, not only in the workplace but also in the personal sphere. If this message can resonate in other organizations, whether or not they are in the financial sector, or at least in one person, I think my contribution in this area is accomplished.

Latin Counsel: How does your academic experience enrich your work in the financial sector and vice versa?

Pilar Otero: There is a saying that a law professor used to tell us: "the less up-to-date you are with the law and the law, the less and less of a lawyer you will be". And it is my responsibility to be as updated as possible to be able to spread this knowledge to my students, but at the same time, it is the students and their concerns that make me meet the challenge of teaching. It is not a minor challenge, since the new generations are increasingly more curious, more skilled and in many cases, even more studied than one.
Therefore, one must try to be as well versed as possible in order to be able to give the size and to be able to generate interesting spaces for discussion. This is why it is so important to try to make time in the agenda to enrich academic knowledge. In addition, at Bancolombia we are encouraged to produce academic material, not only to disseminate it within the organization, but also to share it outside.

Latin Counsel: What advice would you give to women who are starting their careers in law and want to advance in a predominantly male environment?

Pilar Otero: The first thing I would tell them is to get it out of their heads that we are in a predominantly male environment. If you enter with that in your mind, you are already losing.
You have to start your career thinking that the only barriers that exist are those that we impose on ourselves and that, although there may be circumstances in which it will be a little more difficult for us, or in which we will have to make room for ourselves, the world is changing and the role of women is no longer the same as it was before.
I would say to those who like it, it is an exciting career that allows you to work in a very broad spectrum of professions.

Latin Counsel: If you had not studied law, what other career would you have liked to pursue and why?

Pilar Otero: I am passionate about interpersonal relationships and I have an immense fascination for people’s brains and their functionalities, so perhaps medicine (psychiatry and neuroscience) or psychology are definitely on the list of what I would have liked to study. But also my taste for mathematics and the logical explanation of everything inclines me to think that I would also have been a good professional in some engineering or economics. But I think it all makes sense. If I did not have a penchant for human sciences, I would not have studied law, which has exposed me to an infinite world of knowledge and has made me a person curious about interpersonal relationships, starting with the most important one, which is the relationship I have with myself. And hence my interest in the brain and how it works.
Although I broke many stereotypes that it is not possible to practice law in a country other than Colombia, in my case, I believe that having practiced for almost a decade in the U.S. was what led me to have a self-knowledge and value my virtues, but especially to identify my opportunities for improvement. Today I have them perfectly identified and clear, and I am also certain of what I can bring to the table, what my contribution is and have the clear conviction that it will be from a unique point of view. But also something that I have concluded based on my experience and that I invite everyone to have is self-compassion.
In such a competitive world, we often "hit ourselves too hard" and we are our own worst enemy. We compare ourselves with the one next to us and we don’t do the most important task which is to know ourselves.
That journey into ourselves that many are so afraid of.
It is for this reason that I would have liked to study other careers, and it is because of my exposure to them that make me want to invite people to that constant journey inside ourselves and to have in the key of the main doctors that one must have the psychiatrist and the psychologist or therapist or coach, since mental health is equally or more important than the others-it is to know your brain, the instructions or the user’s manual of it, and to know all the ins and outs of your mind and understand why one is the way one is and what one is which leads you to know what things you can objectively improve on by having yourself as a point of comparison, but also what things you can bring to the table-whether it be work, friends, home, family, etc.
But since my head is also logical, I have to think that everything makes sense and that if I had studied other careers I would have arrived at the same place, just by a different route.